Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 0:27:29 GMT 1
Not quite sure where this goes, so if it doesn't belong here, please move it to where it does.
At another site, we were discussing Billie and why some fans hated her so much. Here's what got it going:
Now this was before I read Witchlighter, when Phoenix showed us how Billie should've been written. But here's my response:
Later another member answerd with this:
And I really liked what he came up with. A short while ago, some friends and I were discussing it and did some editing. It's how we would've liked to have seen Seasons 5-8 done and I'm curious to see what you guys think of it. Naturally, it ignores everything in the comics.
So? What do you think?
At another site, we were discussing Billie and why some fans hated her so much. Here's what got it going:
If we were to separate Billie from her storyline how would people react?
Is it…
Would we still hate HMC's character of Piper for butting in a show?
Sorry, but I'm trying to figure out if we hate Kaley or her character more.
Or what if Billie were played by somebody else?
Is it…
- A good character with a bad storyline
- A bad character with a good storyline
- A good character with a good (but poorly developed) storyline
- A bad character with a bad storyline
Would we still hate HMC's character of Piper for butting in a show?
Sorry, but I'm trying to figure out if we hate Kaley or her character more.
Or what if Billie were played by somebody else?
Now this was before I read Witchlighter, when Phoenix showed us how Billie should've been written. But here's my response:
I think in typical Kern-fashion, it was a good idea done horribly badly, although this one (from what I've heard and I might be wrong) was forced on him. We would not have gotten a final season if Season Eight hadn't been used to introduce a spinoff - Billie's spinoff. That was stupid on The WB's part for a bunch of reasons.
First, of course, we Charmed fans wanted the final season of our show to be based on CHARMED - as in THE CHARMED ONES - not one blonde witch who was even more powerful than the sisters put together and one who showed how self-centered the sisters had become, because they no longer wanted to do their duty of saving innocents (the reason they had received their powers in the first place), but still wanted to hang onto their powers for their own personal use. (They should've done one or the other. The sisters willing to give up their powers once they showed Billie how to take over would've made a better storyline, especially if the sisters' kids had been allowed to regain theirs once they were old enough to handle them - which would've been a perfect setup for *their* spinoff. I abhored the fact that the only times the sisters battled evil was when the evil was after them or their family - to heck with innocents. Before the season was half-over I abhored all of the sisters except Paige. I actually *liked* Billie for that reason - she *was* interested in saving innocents and reminded the Charmed Ones of the reason for having their powers.) Personally, I would've preferred Season 7 being the last one, especially if the Charmed Ones hadn't been cheating by using astral projection (and they shouldn't have been able to use their powers during that) and instead sacrificed themselves, leaving Victor and Leo to raise the boys (and no cousins!), setting up the spinoff most of the fans wanted.
And that's what I think the biggest problem was. Had the fans not known that Season 8 was being used to set up Billie's spinoff, I think they might have accepted Billie easier. But there was a problem - the Chrisaholics (and at that point, they easily made the most rabid of the fans) wanted The Charmed Sons as the spinoff, *not* Billie the Teenaged Witch. The fact that Billie's missing sister was named Christy seemed like a slap in the face to the Chrisaholics when it was simply done to use the "Last Temptation of Christy" as a title, the same way Chris got his name so they could have "ChrisCrossed", Paige got hers so they could have "Paige from the Past" and Cole got his so they could have "Black as Cole".
The fact that in order to have Billie and the other stars meant we had to give up having Darryl and Leo, both who should've been parts of the final season also made the fans turn off of Billie, too.
I also think hiring a comedic actress like Kaley to do a dramatic role was a mistake. She overacted almost as badly as Rose sometimes did, which also made it hard to like and feel bad for the character. Also, she made Billie seem so DUMB (typical blonde on TV) that that also made it hard to like the character to the point where most fans were disappointed that she didn't die during Forever Charmed. But since it's rather obvious that she was Kern's favorite character in the last season (she had to be, since she was his best bet to continue his job as executive producer), that wouldn't happen.
I've always thought that had Kern looked ahead a bit more, he could've/should've switched Season 6 and Season 8 around. Had we met Billie during Season 6 and had the sisters help her find her sister (especially because they *wouldn't* have to be the Ultimate Power - another *horrible* idea - I got *so* sick of Ultimate Powers!) with it not being the last season, I think the fans would've enjoyed it more, especially because Leo and Darryl would've still been parts of it. Then had Chris shown up and done *his* thing in S8, that would've set up the spinoff most of the fans wanted.
This isn't to say that fans wouldn't have still hated the Jenkinses, but it would've been more like their hatred for such characters as Jenny Gordon, Leslie or Dex, who were all quickly forgotten.
So to answer your first question, it was a good character with a good storyline (but not a great character or a great storyline) played by the wrong actress during the wrong season.
First, of course, we Charmed fans wanted the final season of our show to be based on CHARMED - as in THE CHARMED ONES - not one blonde witch who was even more powerful than the sisters put together and one who showed how self-centered the sisters had become, because they no longer wanted to do their duty of saving innocents (the reason they had received their powers in the first place), but still wanted to hang onto their powers for their own personal use. (They should've done one or the other. The sisters willing to give up their powers once they showed Billie how to take over would've made a better storyline, especially if the sisters' kids had been allowed to regain theirs once they were old enough to handle them - which would've been a perfect setup for *their* spinoff. I abhored the fact that the only times the sisters battled evil was when the evil was after them or their family - to heck with innocents. Before the season was half-over I abhored all of the sisters except Paige. I actually *liked* Billie for that reason - she *was* interested in saving innocents and reminded the Charmed Ones of the reason for having their powers.) Personally, I would've preferred Season 7 being the last one, especially if the Charmed Ones hadn't been cheating by using astral projection (and they shouldn't have been able to use their powers during that) and instead sacrificed themselves, leaving Victor and Leo to raise the boys (and no cousins!), setting up the spinoff most of the fans wanted.
And that's what I think the biggest problem was. Had the fans not known that Season 8 was being used to set up Billie's spinoff, I think they might have accepted Billie easier. But there was a problem - the Chrisaholics (and at that point, they easily made the most rabid of the fans) wanted The Charmed Sons as the spinoff, *not* Billie the Teenaged Witch. The fact that Billie's missing sister was named Christy seemed like a slap in the face to the Chrisaholics when it was simply done to use the "Last Temptation of Christy" as a title, the same way Chris got his name so they could have "ChrisCrossed", Paige got hers so they could have "Paige from the Past" and Cole got his so they could have "Black as Cole".
The fact that in order to have Billie and the other stars meant we had to give up having Darryl and Leo, both who should've been parts of the final season also made the fans turn off of Billie, too.
I also think hiring a comedic actress like Kaley to do a dramatic role was a mistake. She overacted almost as badly as Rose sometimes did, which also made it hard to like and feel bad for the character. Also, she made Billie seem so DUMB (typical blonde on TV) that that also made it hard to like the character to the point where most fans were disappointed that she didn't die during Forever Charmed. But since it's rather obvious that she was Kern's favorite character in the last season (she had to be, since she was his best bet to continue his job as executive producer), that wouldn't happen.
I've always thought that had Kern looked ahead a bit more, he could've/should've switched Season 6 and Season 8 around. Had we met Billie during Season 6 and had the sisters help her find her sister (especially because they *wouldn't* have to be the Ultimate Power - another *horrible* idea - I got *so* sick of Ultimate Powers!) with it not being the last season, I think the fans would've enjoyed it more, especially because Leo and Darryl would've still been parts of it. Then had Chris shown up and done *his* thing in S8, that would've set up the spinoff most of the fans wanted.
This isn't to say that fans wouldn't have still hated the Jenkinses, but it would've been more like their hatred for such characters as Jenny Gordon, Leslie or Dex, who were all quickly forgotten.
So to answer your first question, it was a good character with a good storyline (but not a great character or a great storyline) played by the wrong actress during the wrong season.
Later another member answerd with this:
Okay, after reading mostly Es's posts I think I've come to my own conclusion and it does go slightly off topic, purely because alot of what Es said made total sense.
And I really liked what he came up with. A short while ago, some friends and I were discussing it and did some editing. It's how we would've liked to have seen Seasons 5-8 done and I'm curious to see what you guys think of it. Naturally, it ignores everything in the comics.
SEASON FIVE – THE AVATAR SEASON
This season combines both the ideas of the original S5 and the ideas of the original S7. Much as we hate the fact that the sisters and Leo faked their own deaths to save their wiccan asses, it happens all the same. We think it should've been done near enough the same with some very important differences.
Keeping Cole in, as they did, the first half of the season plays out pretty much the same, but building up the Avatars a bit more, perhaps having them stalk Cole like they did Leo.
However, unlike the original S5, Cole does not return with all of the extra powers from the Demonic Underworld so he’s not crazy, nor does Phoebe hate him or unfairly blame him...she knows and admits that it was her fault that she turned evil and now she's afraid to love him after what happened before, afraid that if she goes with him, she'll turn evil again.
The Avatars promise Cole a world where she won’t be afraid of him, but having been under the control of the Source, Cole doesn’t want to give anyone that much power over him, so he demands that the Avatars leave him alone…he is determined to figure a way to make Phoebe overcome her fears and be willing to give them a second chance.
With Cole turning his back on the Avatars, they turn instead to Leo - who for pretty much the first time shows he also has a weakness. The Avatars promise him a world where his wife and Wyatt, his newborn son (who like the original is born this season, but does not have his protective shield, so Piper isn’t invulnerable whle carrying him, nor is there any sort of prophecy about his birth…in our series there is only one prophecy…the prophecy of the Charmed Ones, just like there is no power of good more powerful than the Power of Three) can be safe.
He follows a similar path to the original S7, agreeing to become an Avatar, and then persuading Cole, who persuades Phoebe, who then shows Piper and Paige the same world both she and Leo saw, and they follow the same path as the original S7.
But during “Charmedgeddon,” - the 100th episode - Cole plays the same role that Brody did (with Phoebe playing the role Paige played), while also playing the Zankou role. He and Leo convince the sisters that the cost of their utopia is the loss of everyone’s free will and they all combine to stop the Avatars.
The cost, however, is Cole’s life as he sacrifices his to save the sisters. The Elders reward him by turning his demonic half into a whitelighter half, and he has a final scene with Phoebe similar to the one that Paige had with Brody.
So our very last view of Cole Turner is as a hero.
Finding out that the Elders still want to punish Leo for his betrayal despite him helping to save the world, the sisters fake their own deaths in order to protect him.
But shortly before this happens, the Elders decide to give Paige a charge…a young witch named Billie Jenkins. Billie’s sister Christy was kidnapped as a child and Billie wants the sisters to help find her. The sisters agree to do this, as long as Billie takes over their duty of protecting innocents. Billie agrees, even though unlike the sisters, she doesn’t have any powers.
Or does she?
After the sisters are “gone”, rather than Darryl watching them walk away, it’s a very sad, disappointed Billie standing in the doorway. Once she’s sure they’re gone, she waves her hand.
The front door closes.
SEASON SIX – THE BILLIE SEASON
This plays pretty much like the original S8, with the sisters using Billie as a way to leave magic behind, so Piper can raise her family with Leo, while Phoebe and Paige regain their lives disguised as others. Paige is left to train Billie, but she does it as quickly as possible so she can get back to her own life.
Having lost Cole, Phoebe finally realizes how much she loves him and has gone into mourning, not even looking at another man. Instead she concentrates on her job as “Ask Phoebe” and her nephew. Although through her job as “Ask Phoebe”, she meets numerous innocents who need help, she shoves them off on Billie.
Rather than Phoebe, Paige is the social butterfly who flits from guy to guy (which allows the hunky male guest stars that the WB demanded), although she’s no Freebie…she doesn’t go to bed with any of them but neither does she act the tease.
She decides that social work came to her because of her whitelighter side of wanting to protect people. She wants to get away from that and away from her old life of being Charmed, so she gives up her social work. She then goes into temp jobs and pushes all innocents onto Billie - after all, that's why she gave up her social work in the first place.
Piper also ignores innocents as she becomes more engrossed in the club and her family, even with thoughts of expanding her business and opening up the restaurant she dreamed of.
We and Billie can tell how selfish and self-centered the sisters have become - the sisters believe their work is done and the world is now in their debt. Billie keeps reminding them about her sister, and the sisters promise to get to it…eventually. Although Billie acts like a typical dumb blonde (think the original S8 Billie...) when she’s around the sisters, she’s anything but when alone. She continues to use her TK to help innocents, but only when the sisters aren’t around.
Billie eventually finds her sister, with little help from the selfish sisters. Christy does similar to the original S8 and shows Billie how selfish the sisters are and tries to turn her against them. As far as the sisters are concerned, she has.
After the Elders finally catch up with Leo and take him away, they sense a new threat, but when they try to get the sisters to stop it, they find the sisters have turned their backs on both the Elders and their destiny. Only by telling Piper that if they can stop it, Leo will be returned to her do the sisters agree.
Billie realizes that her sister is the enemy but can she stop all hell from breaking loose, especially when Christy uses her power of projection to project the sisters back to Salem, Massachusetts, when witches are hunted and burnt??
After they are able to get back to their own time, Paige is the first to blame herself and her sisters, saying if they hadn't have been so busy with their lives they might have noticed Christy was evil and been able to stop her before she did so much harm. Piper says they deserved a normal life; Phoebe disagrees and sides with Paige, and the two finally convince Piper.
Billie turns up and this time begs for their help in not just stopping her sister, but saving her. She points the sisters back on the right path and rather than vanquishing Christy, the sisters save her by binding her powers.
Once they do, Leo is finally returned, but a price must be paid...he no longer has his wings.
After the wonderful reunion between Leo and Piper, Billie turns to the sisters, finally showing her true self to them rather than the dumb blonde she has pretended to be. She admits that she isn't actually Billie - that Billie asked her to help find her sister at about the same time that Prue asked her to help guide her sisters back onto the straight and narrow.
Only by nearly losing Leo and their lives could the sisters learn their lesson. The sisters (and Leo) all promise to go back to their destiny as protector of the innocents.
In the final scene of the season we see Billie standing at the front door, her back to us. We then see Paige walking down the stairs behind her, but Billie is so lost in thought she doesn’t hear her. Looking from Paige's POV, we see the white lights begin to surround Billie, but before she's taken away, she glamors into this familiar figure—although it’s only her back, it’s obvious that it’s Prue.
Paige gasps just before the circling white lights take Prue away. But just before she vanishes, Prue waves her hand.
The front door closes.
SEASON SEVEN – THE CHRIS SEASON
This plays like the original S6, but with some major differences.
First and most important of all...Magic School?? What Magic School? Gideon?? Who's he?
Instead, "ChrisCrossed" - the 150th episode - is the start of a story arc where we get to find out what happened in the future. With Leo as a mortal and Chris only as a witch, Wyatt (goaded on by Barbas) has become power-hungry in the future and has become a warlock/darklighter rather than a witch/whitelighter.
As Leo is now human he never becomes (or became) an Elder, so Chris doesn't hate him - once he has been revealed as his son (and Leo finds out before the sisters do...) Chris actually confides in his father, not only about Piper's premature death but also about his fiancée back home. Leo becomes more like the figure Victor was in the original S6, although obviously as a regular.
Also with Leo as a human, Chris is simply a witch - not a witchlighter like his brother, so he still has his inferiority complex - and was sent back by the remaining Elders in order to save the world by stopping Wyatt from being turned evil by Barbas.
Chris freezes time like his mother, but like Prue in the previous season, he hides that from the family for most of the season, to hide his identity.
Also because Leo is mortal, there is no "Oh, My Goddess" or "Valhalla of the Dolls" or "Hyde School Reunion" - neither Chris or any of the sisters ever murder a non-magical, nor do the sisters steal Darryl's soul without his permission, performing magical rape. We can actually go back to admiring the sisters rather than hating them as we did in the previous season. (and as I did during the last three.)
About halfway through the season, Drake appears. He's been sent by Cole, who wants Phoebe to love again but knows that the Elders won’t let him see her, since whitelighters aren’t allowed to see people they knew in their current life. Although Drake is fated to die soon, he helps Phoebe regain her love of life and love of magic, helping her transform back to the Phoebs we saw in the first couple of seasons. Even though she knows he’s dying, she tells him she loves him almost as much as she loves Cole and wants to marry him.
By this point, we've already had the big reveal and the sisters also know who Chris is. He lets slip that Phoebe and Drake are the parents of the cousin who we saw help him in the future…the one whose death at Wyatt's hand prompted him to accept the Elders' offer to go back in time and try to change things. That’s enough for Phoebe and Drake to call for Grams and they’re married and go on their honeymoon, where Drake dies.
Also in the meantime, Paige has gone back to her social work and this time she’s looking for and helping innocents, including Richard and his family, helping him to whoo the girl he loves but who is a member of the other family...
Later, when helping out a troubled young man, she meets his parole officer…Henry Mitchell…and they become friends...helping each other in a number of cases.
Near the end, we first show an episode that shows what would've happened to the sisters had Chris not shown up, followed by one that shows what has changed now that he has.
And what has changed?? Will the sisters *finally* be able to vanquish Barbas and be able to save Wyatt and the future once and for all?
SEASON EIGHT – THE ZANKOU SEASON
This season the Elders give Paige more charges. She’s also becoming closer and closer to Henry, and eventually they become lovers, although by the end of the season, he still doesn’t know that she’s a witch, and has yet to pop the question, setting the stage for a possible Paige spin-off.
On the other hand, Phoebe now finds that she’s pregnant with Drake’s child. Despite her pregnancy, she doesn't shy away from her Charmed duties, and becomes the chief innocent saver (as Paige is with her charges), setting the stage for a possible Phoebe spin-off.
Piper continues on her role as leader of the Charmed Ones while still remembering the lessons she learned from both Prue and Chris. After seeing what happened in the future, she binds Wyatt’s powers and binds Chris’ just as soon as he’s born (which happens in this season rather than the previous one) until they are old enough to properly handle them, which will also let them have a semi-normal childhood, setting the stage for a possible Charmed Sons spin-off.
With Leo as her project manager (something he takes up professionally) Piper extends P3 into a restaurant, but both she and Leo are very careful to make sure that they spend plenty of time raising Wyatt and Chris properly, while putting leading the Charmed Ones and saving innocents as Piper's highest priority, setting the stage for a possible Piper spin-off.
Meanwhile, Zankou is in the background, watching the sisters, plotting and planning. His story works out much like the original S7, but without the Avatars.
Instead of the Nexus - since we all know that the Nexus is a location, not a thing, so it can't possess anyone - Zankou is after some immortality amulets that are hidden in P3. He realizes that the only thing that can stop him is the Power of Three, so he kidnaps the only one who doesn't have active powers - Phoebe - although the other two manage to get her back with some help from Phoebe’s unborn baby.
During the two-part series finale which combines "Something Wicca This Way Goes?" and "Forever Charmed" the sisters risk their lives in a big, fiery finale, fully expecting to die, but Paige manages to panic orb away. Piper and Phoebe are left for dead - the first time any of the sisters have died during our last four seasons - but using the spell that Chris gave them, Paige is the one who does a "Forever Charmed" and goes back in time to try to save them. She never goes forward in time so we never see any of the Charmed Ones (or Leo) as old.
Instead Paige gathers Grams and Patty to help save the day. Paige phases back into her body as soon as the group arrive, just like time travelers to the past always have.
Phoebe gets a premonition of what happened the first time around just before Patty freezes Zankou as Grams TK's the amulet away from Zankou and then Piper blows him across the room. Now with him unprotected by the amulet, the sisters cast the Source vanquish spell before Phoebe starts chanting the P3 spell. Piper and Paige join in and that protects them all from the explosion (which is what Phoebe saw killing her and Piper the first time around).
If the miracle occurs and Shannen Doherty *does* accept our offer to allow her image to appear (hopefully we didn’t treat her as crappy as Brad Kern did), then in happy ending, Piper, Phoebe and Paige walk down the stairs together - the young mother and business woman, the pregnant widow who gives out advice, and the witchlighter happily exploring her new relationship - admiring the photographs on the wall as we get flashbacks of the past significant to each image - including Seasons 1-3 - ending with the picture of the original Power of Three. Then there's a bit of magic and Paige becomes a part of the picture, too.
If we’re not that fortunate, we don’t get to see the pictures or the flashbacks, but we do hear the sisters talking about everything that has occurred as they go up the stairs. When they reach the last one, Piper reaches out to touch the picture we can’t see. “The picture Grams took. Prue. I wish we could see her.”
Paige says, “Maybe you finally can”.
Phoebe nods, and they finish their trek up the stairs—the young mother and business woman, the pregnant widow who gives out advice and the witchlighter happily continuing her new relationship.
They gather around the Book of Shadows and cast the To Summon a Witch spell. Off-screen we hear the magical lights shimmer and see the reaction of all three Charmed Ones as Piper gasps out, “Prue!”
During this season, we never see the future at all...that's left for the movie or the spin-off!
So? What do you think?